Tanya Hale 00:00 

Hey there! Welcome to Intentional Living with Tanya Hale. This is episode number 414, "Hidden Emotional Treasures." Welcome to your place where finding greater happiness through intentional growth, because we don't just fall into the life of our dreams...we choose to create it. This is Tanya Hale, and I'm your host for Intentional Living. 

Tanya Hale 00:22 

Well, hello there, my friends. So glad to be with you. This is my first reported podcast from our new home in Hawaii. And I'm sitting here, and out one window, I've got a beautiful flowering bush and a view of the neighborhood with lots of trees. And out the other side, I can see a bay out there and the ocean. And I just feel like I have died and gone to heaven. It is beautiful here, and it has been warm, and the moving in process has been a process for sure. So we have all of our stuff, and we're slowly like digging our way out of the mess and have my office set up and ready to get to work. 

Tanya Hale 01:06 

So want to remind you, if you are interested in the Talk with Tanya and you're listening to this on the day that it came out, you're going to find that it is tomorrow. So please, if you want to come, go to the website, sign up so that you can get the email that will give you the link for it. And so that will be the 9th. If you are interested in next month in July, that will be on the 14th, July 14th. So you'll want to go to tanyahale.com. You can go to group coaching and you can sign up for that. It is free. It's just a time where we talk and we chat and I do a lot of coaching and you can ask me any questions that you want. You can get curious about my move, about my divorce, about my remarriage, about the beastly amount of work I did in between those two. And we can just do all the things. You can ask me about questions or about how things work. It's just an open talk with Tanya time, and I love those so much. So would love to have you join me for that if you would like. 

Tanya Hale 02:11 

And also just a reminder, if you want to learn more about the topic that we share today, then go down to the show notes in whatever app you're listening to the podcast in. Go to the show notes and down there, I will have several other podcasts that expound on the topics that we discussed. And that is a great, great resource for you to be able to learn more and figure out how to do more self-coaching. 

Tanya Hale 02:37 

So if you are interested in doing some one-on-one coaching with me, you can also go to tanyahale.com. You can click on the free consultation tab and you can sign up for a 90-minute consultation. Now, I know 90 minutes seems like a lot, but I promise you it is time well used. Please don't be intimidated by it. I am not a hard sell by any means. I will do some coaching. In fact, if you have concerns about coaching, I will even coach you on your concerns, but never with the intent to talk you into coaching, because if it's not a good fit for you, then it's not a good fit. And this coaching that I do is all about helping you get where you want to go. 

Tanya Hale 03:18 

So in that hour and a half, we start off with just coaching you on whatever questions you have about a life situation that you're going through. And I will coach you and help give you some clarity, help you see what coaching can be and the process that it takes. And then at the end, we will talk about what coaching with me on a regular basis would look like and what it would cost and what it entails for you, the investment that you need to make, not only with money, but also with time and with energy, all those things we talked about. And I think if you have not taken advantage of one of those free consultations and you thought about doing some coaching, I would absolutely get on there and get signed up. My times, if you're in the continental United States, are a little bit more accessible now. Most of them will be afternoons or evenings. Mornings are a little bit tough for me since I am three hours ahead of Pacific time zone and six hours ahead of Eastern. So, but it's working out really great. Still working with my clients. And let's see. I think that's going to do it. 

Tanya Hale 04:28 

Today I'm sharing with you a chat that my friend in LCSW, Kathy Anzac, and I had a few weeks ago. She's one of my great exercise friends. And we had a chat one morning and we'll introduce that at the beginning of the call. But we just had such a good chat and we were like, "oh, we need to share this. We need to record this and share some of our own insights" as we were talking with each other and coaching each other and the things that we both learned about ourselves in that context. And this kind of gives you an idea of what the work that I do for myself and her as an LCSW who works a lot with married couples, the work that she does for herself as well. And it's an ongoing process for all of us. This coaching stuff is important information every day of the week. And I still work with coaches on a regular basis because of the kinds of insights that we're going to, you're going to hear us talk about on this podcast. I think you're going to love, love, love this one. So enjoy this. And I'm just going to end it here. So I will see you next week. 

Tanya Hale 05:40 

Alright. Hey, this is Tanya. Welcome. I'm going to introduce you to my friend Kathy. We have chatted before about perfectionism, if you remember, probably about, I don't know, four months ago or so. Such a great discussion. Kathy, just give us a quick intro to you again, and maybe you can even introduce what we're going to talk about today. 

Kathy 05:59 

Oh, my goodness. Okay, so Tanya and I, we have been exercising with each other off and on pretty much since I moved here to West Jordan. And it's been such a great moment. And it's just really just evolved where we've had these great discussions. I am an LCSW. I work at an office in Riverton and I really love working with couples and I've always been interested in therapy and all things therapy. So that's been my passion. And it's been so nice to be able to be friends with Tanya as she shares that growth mindset. And as we're always talking about really deep things, and it's really evolved over the years. So, yeah. 

Tanya Hale 06:40 

As it's been a pleasure to be dear friends with you, like I, one reason that our exercising was, I think was so consistent was because not only did we both want to exercise, but the conversations were just always so deep and helped us understand ourselves at a better level. And my growth as a human has been so tied to the coaching that you have given me over the years. 

Kathy 07:06 

And vice versa. 

Tanya Hale 07:09 

Yeah. We just have grown so much together. And yeah, so it's been a brilliant relationship. Really grateful for this. So every time I come back to West Jordan, which I'm here right now via between Indiana and Hawaii, we did a stop over here. And so we were exercising this morning. And this came up. Tell them how this came up. You might. 

Kathy 07:33 

So yesterday was, you know, kind of our first day back and we started exercising and Tanya was relaying some things. And as I was listening to her, you know, one of the thoughts came was, I wonder if, you know, some of the reason why people are reacting the way that they are is because they're feeling sad about her leaving for Hawaii. And I even mentioned how in my own vulnerability that I knew that I was feeling sad as well. But I just mentioned that casually as, you know, I'm just feeling sad too with you moving to Hawaii. And my experiences, I experienced Tanya in that moment was she was able to, you know, jump in and say, well, if you really consider that the plane tickets are about the same and it's just a few hours and, you know, it's not that different from Indiana. And, you know, so it was helpful insight as far as maybe changing a little bit about my perception of how things were. 

Kathy 08:26 

But as I was walking home, because I live just right down the block from you, I started to just notice what was coming up for me. And I'm like, what is this feeling? What's going on? And I was thinking to myself, oh, the feeling that I'm feeling right now is maybe dismissed or maybe unseen. And I was really confused about why I was feeling that way. But it was the response to me having said that I was feeling sad, sadness about, you know, her leaving for Hawaii. And so this morning, I noticed that I was a little bit nervous, but I know I've had great experiences with Tanya where we can really lean into these things. So I asked permission if we could talk about something to dive deep. And I expressed this. I said, "hey, Tanya, you know, when I said that I was, you know, feeling a little sadness and grief around you moving to Hawaii, you kind of gave me this logical, 'hey, you know, but what about this? And we could, you could just consider it this way and look at it this way.' And at the end, I wasn't really sure, but when I was walking home, I felt like I was dismissed. And I just wanted to address that and point that out as far as how I was experiencing you." So that's how we set up the conversation. 

Tanya Hale 09:46 

Yeah. And, you know, it's interesting because as we started to unravel all of this, we discovered some really fascinating things. And that's why I was like, "Kathy, let's get on and record this. And we actually, this experience happened to us just an hour and a half ago. Just an hour and a half. Yeah, we just got to record this because we had so many great insights. And, you know, as I go back to the moment that you said that you were sad, my brain at the time, this is why thought work, I think, is so valuable because at the time, my only thought was, I mean, I didn't even, I kind of glossed over you saying that you were sad because it was just like a little comment made on the side in the middle, in the context of a bigger conversation. Like we were talking about something bigger and you mentioned that and I kind of just, I did, I just glossed over it. And we're going to come back to that in a minute of why I glossed over it. 

Tanya Hale 10:48 

But in my brain as well, I'm thinking, Kathy, I've been gone for four years. And I come back and we exercise. And now I'm just going to be gone to a different place. Right? And I'm going to come back and we're going to exercise. So my brain was also moving to this place of, nothing is going to be different here. Right? So there's where I was sstanding. When you brought that up this morning, I was like "oh" because one thing that caught my attention was that I've been told a couple of times this last year that I've been dismissive of people.And that's painful for me. Because of any way that I want to be with people that I love, it's not dismissive. 

Kathy 11:40 

And I know your heart. Your heart is not about dismissiveness. If anything, your own connection, you're about trying to help other people. And so it's uncharacterological of you, but yeah. 

Tanya Hale 11:53 

But it's been mentioned several times this year. So it is characteristic of me. 

Kathy 11:58 

Oh, that's true. Yeah. 

Tanya Hale 11:59 

Right. And so, so it, it was kind of like, this has been like working on me in the last hour and a half as well, thinking, okay, I want to figure out this dismissive piece. Why do I go there? And I think I discovered a piece of it this morning as we dug a little bit deeper into this. So do you want to pick up from here? 

Kathy 12:18 

Yeah. So when we were talking about the dismissiveness, I was able to recognize that I just mentioned it very casually, you know, like I'm feeling some grief. I'm feeling some sadness. So I was able to own that piece of it. And so I could recognize, oh, of course she would gloss over this. Of course it would be just the way she responded makes perfect sense. And yet I was still experiencing that feeling of dismissiveness. So I was relaying how I was reading or listening to an audiobook about this woman talking about what my bones know. And she's talking about complex trauma. And she has little snippets of a therapy session in that book. And the therapy session, the therapist, you know, in the initial session, you know, she's kind of going on about something and then she changed subjects. And he circled back, you know, in the session and said, "hey, I want to revisit this other piece." And to me, as a therapist, I'm always curious because he's kind of a world-renowned therapist and what makes him so great. And he noticed, he picked up on her moving on past something that was deeply important and probably had a lot of stuff to unpack there. 

Kathy 13:38 

And then, so I've been thinking to myself, how often do I gloss through or just breeze through maybe something that my client has said, but I didn't really count it as, "oh, this is an important thing." In that book, she also relays that what she learned from her therapist was her friend was, she was having, you know, lunch with her friend and her friend started in, started talking. And then she stopped and said, "oh, I'm so sorry. I'm talking about myself. You know, I'm, but, you know, let's talk about you." And she said that as a result of therapy, she stopped and said to her friend, "actually, I want to hear more about what you have to say." And in that moment, she was able to go a lot deeper and have an amazing connection with her friend because there was something deeper going on there. 

Kathy 14:28 

And so I think sometimes, I think we talked about how often we will test the waters. Sometimes we'll just give little snippets. We'll just give little bits of, are you going to be there for me? Are you really listening? Do you really have the space for me to hear me? And I think that that's where I was kind of also recognizing, "why didn't I just say, 'oh, I'm feeling grief,'" just like a statement. And so you weren't able to pick that up. 

Tanya Hale 14:56 

And yeah, and it was, it was kind of just a little teeny tiny insert. And but when you brought it up this morning, I was like, "of course I remember that." Right? So it's not like it completely went over my head or it was one of those things in a conversation that we miss. I picked up on it and I gave all the reasons why it wasn't a big reason. 

Kathy 15:18 

We launched into the problem solving or the "hey, let's think about it this way," especially being, you know, framing it and thought, you know, calling each other on our thoughts and like, that's just a thought, you know, but yeah. 

Tanya Hale 15:29 

Yeah. So, so this morning, we were part of our conversation was, how often do we make bids for connection, but they're so tiny that they don't get perceived as being important? How often am I not asking for what I want and need outright? You know, but instead we put in these little teeny tiny, oh yeah, you know, like you, like, I'm a little bit sad that you're moving to Hawaii. Right? Rather than, "hey, can I just share? Like, I, I'm really feeling a lot of grief about you moving." 

Kathy 16:09 

And I won't say that you absolutely would have responded that way. Yeah. If I stopped and I'm like, I'm feeling grief about, I'm feeling sadness about you moving to Hawaii. I know you absolutely would have mirrored me back. 

Brooke Oniki 16:22 

Yeah. So part of the question is, why do we do the little teeny tiny bids rather than asking for what we want? Why do you think that is? I have my ideas. I want to hear yours because we talked about this this morning. 

Kathy 16:35 

I do think it is. We all test for safety. And I think we talked about this before, how we have the two drives of attachment and safety. And so in the face of not feeling safe, we'll choose safety rather than attachment over and over again. And so I think it's just a bid sometimes of do you really even care? Or do you even really see me? Is that, you know, or is what I'm, is what I'm experiencing as real to you as it is to me? 

Tanya Hale 17:00 

Yeah. So, and I think you're right. It is a bid, but we're a little bit scared, right? That's a protective piece and unconscious because you weren't doing, you weren't saying that from a place of conscious fear that I wouldn't respond well or whatever. And I've noticed as we were talking this morning, I can look back and see in my life, I have felt from the time that I was young that I had so much to offer and that I've always been overlooked. And this morning I was like, oh, like this is a lifelong thing for me. And I had this aha this morning that, oh, it's because I put out these little teeny tiny bids for connection. Why do I do that? Because I've always been told that I need to be easy peasy. I need to be easy to get along with. I need to not rock the flow. Go with the flow. Like I need to be adaptable. I need to make sure that everybody else feels comfortable around me. 

Tanya Hale 18:05 

And this is, and I talk about this all the time on the podcast. And yet here I was like, "oh my gosh, this is me doing this." These little teeny tiny bids for connection that I make sometimes that can be easily overlooked and not seen as really something to stop and address because I just put these little tiny things out. And then when people don't go, "oh, wait a minute, tell me what's going on with you. Help me understand that more." When they just gloss over because I put out such a tiny pebble that it doesn't even bother them when they step on it, right? I put that out. Then I'm over here in my victim mentality saying, "oh, see, I'm just not as important. I don't matter as much." And then I get into this, "oh, I've been overlooked," right? Like, and so I'm really recognizing how I perpetuate this thought cycle that I've had my whole life of feeling like I have so much to offer, so much to do. And yet I just drop little teeny tiny pebbles rather than standing up and saying, "hey, this is something that's important to me. Can we talk about it?" Or, you know, however that comes out. 

Kathy 19:29 

That makes perfect sense because you came from a very large family. And I was even talking with the client about this is how, you know, her son was going through therapy and talking about how his high needs sister, you know, her high needs daughter was being, you know, he always felt like he was overlooked. He's finally going into therapy and recognizing this. And she's just so racked with guilt and felt so bad about it. And I'm like, "look, you've got to also feel, you've got to also grieve the fact that you couldn't be there, you know, for your son. The fact is, is that there was, there was a medically fragile child that needed your help and you had to make a choice." And of course he felt neglected. Of course this happened. 

Kathy 20:12 

And I think just circumstantially too, within the family unit, like you said, be adaptable. Go with the flow. Don't cause waves because what would that do to your parents to have to manage, you know, unruly, high needs kids, kids that had needs. And it was just, it was just a way to adapt to your situation. 

Tanya Hale 20:34 

I think my family of origin and I think the message that women need to be a little bit small. We need to be quiet. We need to not speak up because then we're overly agreeable. Yeah. Right. And so I think all of that was playing in. Anyway, so that's part of our like aha this morning is this, oh, how often do we just put out these little teeny tiny bits for connection enough for us to feel rejected, but not enough for us to be seen? Because it's my responsibility to make sure that I'm heard and seen. Yeah. Because I stand up and I speak up. It's not other people's job to see me. It's my job to see myself. And I see myself as I stand up and speak up and ask for what I need. 

Kathy 21:24 

And even in that moment, Tanya, I wasn't able to even communicate to you the fact that I felt dismissed until I was walking home and I had to turn into, I was like, there is an emotion, there's something coming up for me. What is that feeling? And so I was even disconnected. So I really love how I'm really trying to make things that are unconscious to become more conscious that are, you know, I'm really trying to pay attention to what's going on feeling wise. And I think there was another piece too that, you know, I wonder if sometimes when I share my feelings, people react to me as they start to feel guilty, like they have to respond to me and make that feel better. That was a sharetake my feelings, right? I think you even mentioned that you were feeling, you know, like, yeah, like you were trying to take care of it or that was a bid for you to solve it for me, to fix it, to, you know, help soothe that. 

Tanya Hale 22:21 

Yeah. So I love this piece. And then, but then we also had another whole big element of this discussion that was fabulous because we started, you know, so then I asked a couple of questions. I'm like, "well, tell me a little bit more about this then. Tell me about what's going on with, you know, what's the difference for you between me living in Indiana and coming back to Utah and living in Hawaii and coming back to Utah?" And just me asking that question, getting curious rather than being defensive, right, was opened up for you a whole new portal. You want to talk a little bit about that? 

Kathy 23:00 

Yeah, because I even, you know, responded with, "well, I was also feeling grief too, because you were leaving and, you know, we had to disband our exercise group." And so I was feeling grief. And then I'm like, whoa, wait a minute. Hold on. Why am I feeling the sadness now? That was a really great question. I was not aware of and conscious that my parents moved to or went on an LDS mission two years before my dad got pancreatic cancer. And I remember even before knowing he had cancer, how angry I was that they were moving away. I felt like they were abandoning me. I was a mother of young children. 

Tanya Hale 23:40 

And really quick. They went on a mission to Hawaii. And this is the trigger point, right? 

Kathy 23:44 

They went. Oh, yes, they went on a mission to Hawaii. Right. Yes, yes. And I felt, you know, during that time that they were there, you know, I had real feelings about it, but it was, it's kind of an emotional pretzel because, you know, going on an LDS mission is great and it's wonderful and you want your parents to serve. And so I didn't really feel like I could have all the deep feelings that I had about it because they're doing something great. I was dismissed, right? You know, my feelings could be easily dismissed in that moment. And so it hit on that wound, especially in context of my dad finding out that he had pancreatic cancer a couple, you know, a year later and then had to come home. And then two years he was gone. So yeah, there was, I didn't even make the connection until you asked that question. 

Tanya Hale 24:40 

Yeah. So this is just what's fascinating is on the surface level, both of us were like, "oh, she did this and she, and I didn't respond and this was dismissive." Like we were kind of doing this, this thing. But when we dug a little bit deeper, for you, there was, it was tied into your parents moving to Hawaii and the sadness and the grief that you felt with that and the dismissiveness that you felt with that, that you wanted them to be closer when you had little kids and they were gone. 

Kathy 25:14 

I couldn't say, I'm so sad about it. You know, I could say that I was sad, but I couldn't really talk about my feelings about how this is painful. Because serving a mission is a good thing. You know, like I couldn't even allow myself to feel that. 

Tanya Hale 25:31 

So I just think it's fascinating that as we dig deeper, what's really going on underneath what happened between you and I yesterday morning was a lot of this grief, this underlying grief, unconscious grief, about your parents also going to Hawaii and doing that. 

Tanya Hale 25:52 

Now, while we were pulling all these pieces apart this morning, my brain was in my head just going, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, because I was starting to put pieces together for me. And I was realizing, because I've had a couple of times this year where I've told somebody close to me that I'm going to Hawaii and I've gotten some pushback. And I've noticed that both times I've done exactly what I did to you. Oh, "but it's not a big deal," right? I just brushed off and I was like, all of a sudden, it became very clear to me that, oh, I just could see that it's me pushing back against feeling like other people are trying to tell me what to do. And boy, Sione and I talk about this a lot, like my pushback to "don't you tell me what to do kind of thing." Like I don't say it to him like that, but in my head, I'm like, don't you tell me what to do. But I have this huge element of not wanting my autonomy to be taken from me. 

Tanya Hale 26:56 

And so for me, part of the dismissiveness in my previous marriage where I felt that there was there were some control issues going on, I learned how to be dismissive as an adaptive tool. This is one of those adaptive child behaviors, although I picked this one up as an adult, but it's a maladaptive behavior that I incorporated to just brush it off and to keep things from blowing up into these big things. I didn't know how to have a conversation about what was really going on with my ex husband. And so I just learned to just be dismissive, pretend that I didn't hear it, pretend that I didn't really understand what he was saying when I really did. But I learned my defensive mechanism was to become just kind of dismissive and blow it off. And so for me, my big aha was, oh my gosh, like this is for me, pushing back against perceived controller manipulation. Right. And I'm 100% know that what you were doing was not controller manipulation, but my brain takes this pushback against something that I'm doing, even as small and slight as that was, as trying to control me. Don't you tell me what to do? 

Tanya Hale 28:21 

And so what do I do when I feel like somebody's trying to control me? I push back, but a lot of my pushback, I realized this morning, is getting dismissive, blowing it off. And so we found it fascinating as we kind of came around to it that what we discovered had nothing to do with our conversation, but it had everything to do with our conversation. Your triggers around Hawaii, my triggers around being controlled, were running the entire story of how we both showed up in that engagement. And both of us were completely unaware that those things were running the show in the background. We didn't even know those things were existing. 

Kathy 29:07 

And it was an over-exaggeration, right? I mean, the thing of "you're not really abandoning me," you know, and I wasn't controlling you. 

Tanya Hale 29:15 

Right. 100%, right? On both. 

Kathy 29:17 

And so it's, yeah, like you said, it's that maladaptiveness and that perception and that lens that we have that we're going through it. And of course, no wonder we get really confused and sometimes our conversations can get, you know, in a landlock or standstill because it's like, you know, I'm not grieving and abandoned, you know, you are, I'm not abandoning you and I'm not trying to control you. So that's, and so just notice those little perceptions because that's the truth. They'll there, but yet that element was still there. 

Tanya Hale 29:50 

And that element was controlling the narrative. 

Kathy 29:52 

Right. And that's what created inside of me "I feel dismissed." 

Tanya Hale 29:57 

Uh-huh. And that's what created in me this, oh, then I'm just going to like gloss over this because you're not going to control me, you know? Like, and so anyway of us were doing that. It was such a fascinating discussion this morning as we both, I think we were both just in this place of, whoa. Yeah. Whoa. We both discovered something about ourselves that we want to address and that we want to clean up because those thoughts are having us showing up in other relationships in dysfunctional ways. 

Kathy 30:38 

100%. I can't tell you. Lately, my husband's been saying, "now did we have that conversation or is that head Bruce conversation?" You know, like I've had this conversation in my head and how much I have interpreted, you know, his intentions. And oh, believe me, it is 100% true in my mind, in my heart, in my body. I'm experiencing this is how he's being toward me. But a lot of this is based on my experience as a more younger, vulnerable individual. And I'm attributing those pains and those hurts as him doing that to me. And I think that's where our conflict really does come from on so many levels is again, there's unconscious that is not conscious. 

Kathy 31:27 

And I'm also not taking ownership or doing my own work to be able to say, oh, this is my head Bruce. This is my relationship with you entirely that is being perceived through the lens of pain. 

Tanya Hale 31:44 

And I think that, I mean, what we were doing this morning really was like a coaching session or a therapy session. It's the same thing because what we're doing is we are making that unconscious conscious. The unconscious that is running the show dysfunctionally in the background, we cannot clean it up until we see it. And so now that you've seen this abandonment piece, I don't know if you would call it that, but that seems kind of what came up. Abandonment seems a little dramatic for what you went through. 

Kathy 32:22 

I was a grown adult. Yeah, but it felt that loss of opportunity and experience with my parents during a really important time and crucial time in my life. And the importance that I felt towards them having a relationship with my kids. 

Tanya Hale 32:37 

Yeah. And now that that has risen to the top, you can see it and you can address that and you'll be able to start seeing how that is showing up in this relationship and this relationship and this relationship and how it is running so many of these reactive behaviors in you. As I will be able to do the same thing now that I've tapped into a whole brand new level of, "oh, look at how I'm resisting thinking that other people are controlling me. Look at how I'm doing that." And one way that it's showing up is being dismissive and not addressing it. And that's absolutely something that I now, that that unconscious has become conscious. That is something that now I can start looking around and going, "oh, look how I'm dismissive here. Look how I'm dismissive here and in this relationship and in this situation." And now I can start to clean that piece up so that I can be more the person that I want to be in my relationships. 

Kathy 33:40 

And there was another piece that you talked about, you and Sione, that moment, but it came on the piggybacking of my daughter telling me, "mom, are you annoyed with me?" And I was like, "no, I'm not annoyed with you," but when I stopped and really looked at what's the tone of my voice, what is she picking up? In that moment, I could say, oh, actually, I am feeling annoyed, but I want to save her feelings. I don't want her to feel like, you know, she's annoying me. That's mine. And yet, as a smart little 11-year-old girl, that's what's in the room. I wasn't being honest. And we were talking about how sometimes we can, that's where the gaslighting might come in is like, "oh, I'm not annoyed with you, honey." You know, and yet she's picking it up and me not picking up on my stuff of the fact that, yeah, I was coming across with an annoying tone, then it would cause that disconnection between the two of us because like it's duh, you know, she's not stupid. But I just was, I didn't want to to make her, I was afraid that I was making her feel like you're an annoying person. 

Tanya Hale 34:52 

Yeah. Well, and the piece that, and I'll share my experience with Sione with that as well, but the piece of that that's so vital that we click into is that here's your 11-year-old daughter being very perceptive, saying, "you're annoyed." And then you say, "no, I'm not annoyed." And that's going to cause her to start to question her ability to perceive. 

Kathy 35:14 

Yes. 

Tanya Hale 35:15 

To read the room, to see what's going on. And then she'll start questioning all the things, you know? And that's such the danger of a completely unintentional gaslighting with your daughter. You're just trying to protect her feelings in the name of... but what you're really doing is teaching her not to trust herself. 

Tanya Hale 35:39 

Yeah. So how this came out, the situation that I shared with you with Sione and I was that when I had had my ACL repaired three years ago, I was in bed for several days. I couldn't do so much. I had to keep my knee elevated. And even the first day that, like four days in, when I could finally go downstairs, I was sitting at the bar and he had been doing a lot. And I could kind of sense this, it felt like annoyance to me. And I don't think it was annoyance, but I was perceiving it as annoyance. And so I needed a napkin. And I was stretching, stretching, stretching to get these napkins that were just out of my reach. And Sione was like, "I can get that for you." And I said, yeah, but I don't want you to have to keep doing stuff for me because, you know, you're annoyed by it." And he was like, "no, I'm not annoyed." And like, no more than two seconds later, I tell you, this man is brilliant. No more than two seconds later, he stopped and he says, "wait a minute. I am feeling a little bit annoyed, but I'm just really more stressed and overwhelmed because I am having to do so much more right now to take care of you than I usually do. And it's stretching me farther with trying to get my work done and trying to do all this. And I'm happy to get a napkin for you," right? I can feel this and I can still want to serve you and help you and take care of you at this time that you need some extra TLC. 

Tanya Hale 37:15 

And that to me was like, oh my gosh, this is the unintentional gaslighting that we do trying to be kind. But there has to be this balance between kindness and honesty. 

Kathy 37:31 

Yeah, I want to save your feelings. 

Kathy 37:32 

I don't want you to feel this particular way. Why can't we just allow, yeah, let the feelings be there. Tolerate the discomfort. 

Tanya Hale 37:42 

So with your daughter, like being able to say something like, you know what, sweetie? I am annoyed and I'm not annoyed with you. I'm annoyed with my situation and with the fact that I'm a little bit stressed about this and this. And then continue to go on and clean that up, right? But letting her know "your perception is correct. I am showing up annoyed. And it has nothing to do with you." It's just all these pieces we got to start putting together and let these unconscious things become conscious so that we can start taking care of them and and creating greater health and awareness and honesty and kindness in our relationships. 

Kathy 38:36 

I agree with you 100%. Absolutely. And that creates connection. Creates those little micro disconnections and need for repair to be able to get you back into feeling connection. And you also feel safe. I'm safe with you. We both honestly know what's going on. You know, I knew what was going on. And although it wasn't very in my awareness at that moment, yeah, I was feeling well. And I think Sione was just right. I was feeling stressed. And that was coming off as I'm annoyed. But it was, again, it was the gravity of this experience. And I think probably needed to have also looked within and saying, "am I doing too much?" You know, by me being honest, I can also start looking at what's creating this in my life that I am feeling this stress, that I'm relating to my daughter this way, that I'm showing this way. 

Tanya Hale 39:34 

Yeah. This is the brilliant work that you and I get to do with our clients, this digging deeper and helping us come. And I'm so grateful that I have you, that on a regular basis, we are bouncing this kind of stuff around the room and figuring it out and  seeing the repercussions of our own behaviors and what is causing those behaviors. What is underneath all the stuff? Like I had never connected that being dismissive before with feeling controlled and pushed back against that. You had never really connected what you were feeling with that experience with your parents either, right? 

Tanya Hale 40:16 

And this is the brilliance of the work that you and I get to do with our clients is really helping them find the things that are creating dysfunctional behavior that are completely, it's first of all, it's completely unintentional and we're completely unaware. And so creating awareness around it is the work that you and I get to do. And I just think it's brilliant. I love being a coach so much. And I know that you love being a therapist. 

Kathy 40:41 

Oh, you know, when I'm able to recognize that my sense of self is not threatened, when I'm able to make these discoveries and say, and I can find it within me, yeah, you know what? When I get stressed, I get annoyed, you know, I have an annoying time. And that doesn't change my worth. And so I think that we've over the years been able to develop, especially within our relationship, this level of honesty and this level of depth where we both feel very, very safe enough to explore these deep things. 

Tanya Hale 41:15 

And rocking the boat is between us, though it may be uncomfortable. It's not scary. 

Kathy 41:20 

We can stay in the tension of possible attachment disruption, right? You know, we can stay in that and say, hey, we've been able to repair, we've been able to make this. And on the other end, we come out with so much more knowledge. And it's worth the tension. It's worth the feelings of discomfort in order to get to this place because I am so much a better person. And it's so nice to have that safe relationship where we can really, you know, talk about this and hold space for me for that. 

Tanya Hale 41:54 

Yeah, I love that I've got this safe space with you as well. So anyway, any last thoughts before we kind of close this one up? 

Kathy 42:02 

Just, you know, I wish that other people can be able to get to this level too, because this is such a sweet, sweet connection with you. And you are just part of my life that just feels, you know, it just fills myself with just so much joy when I'm around you. And it just creates this place for me where I am more of myself and I'm settled. And I just, I just feel like I shine and I blossom in your presence because of it. And I think that that's why I'm so passionate about couples work is because there is that potential to be able to do that with the person you love, to be able to get to this space. And it is just, the depth of it is just so amazing. It's just so fulfilling. Relational joy. 

Kathy 42:55 

Yeah. And Kathy, I absolutely feel the same about you. It's just such a beautiful, sweet, safe place to see my darkness, you know, to see the little bits in me that are just wreaking havoc. And the safe space to pull those out and put them on the table is just beautiful. And I'm just so grateful for your friendship over the years. So, okay. Well, that is going to do it for us. Thank you, Kathy. 

Kathy 43:26 

I love you so much, Tanya. 

Tanya Hale 43:27 

Oh, my gosh. I love you. This has just been a delight. The journey that we've been on in self-discovery over the years has just been a delight. And it's been such a huge part of creating who I am today. So love you, dear friend. 

Kathy 43:42 

Love you too. 

Tanya Hale 43:44 

Thank you. Thank you so much for joining me today. If you would love to receive some weekend motivation, be sure to sign up for my free "weekend win" Friday email: a short and quick message to help you have a better weekend and position yourself for a more productive week. Go to tanyahale.com to sign up and learn more about life coaching and how it can help you get to your best self ever. See ya.