Tanya Hale 00:00 

Hey there, welcome to Intentional Living with Tanya Hale. This is episode number 413: "Best Mid-Life Coach Advice with Tanya, Jane, and Brooke." Alright, hello there, welcome to the podcast. As always, just pleased as punch to have you here. I love getting to do this work and to share amazing content with you that can give you insight and understanding into your own life, your own relationships, and help you have a more fulfilling, satisfying, beautiful life. 

Tanya Hale 00:44 

Alright we are going to start today with a quick reminder that Talk with Tanya this next month is June 9th. You're going to want to go to tanyahale.com, click on the group coaching tab. You can get signed up for that. You will get an email that has this specific link in it. These are just great opportunities to chat with me, to get free coaching from me, to ask me any question that you want to ask me. I'm a pretty open book about my life about my dating, about my marriage, about my divorce, and also get coaching on situations that you might really be struggling with and get some insight there. It's just a really great opportunity. 

Tanya Hale 01:18 

Also check the show notes if you like some of the content that you heard and you want a little bit more information. In the show notes I include a list and links to some of my other podcasts that will help to fill out this information for you help you to understand it better and have a greater foundation. 

Tanya Hale 01:40 

Alright, that being said let's jump into today. So I have a couple of good friends who are also midlife life coaches and they work mostly with women, although none of us work entirely with women. I thought it would be fun if I got the three of us together and we had a discussion about what is some of the most foundational work that you do with your clients what are some of the things that really help your clients move forward when they understand the concepts and when they incorporate them into the work that you do with them. So we had a great little chat and Jane and Brooke both shared some beautiful stuff and then I shared something that that I work up on a lot with my clients. I think you're going to enjoy this conversation a lot. The three of us have been playing around with once I moved to Hawaii doing a women's retreat in Hawaii. Wouldn't that be fun? Sometime next winter. So we'll see if we can work out the logistics of that. I got to get over there first and find out what's available and and figure out how to do that but I think that would be really fun. So drop me a line if that may be something that you think you'd be interested in coming to. Some sort of a sense of self kind of of workshop. 

Tanya Hale 02:59 

But listen to these these two amazing women and they will introduce themselves and the work that they do. And then also in the footnotes if you want to look up their podcasts and see what's going on, that information will be there as well. So that being said, enjoy this conversation with two other midlife coaches. 

Jane Copier 03:21 

Okay, well, I'll get us started. I'm Jane Coppier. And I am a marriage and family relationship coach. And I live here in South Jordan, Utah and married to my guy for 37 years. And the reason that I love working with marriage specifically, is that you know, I've had struggles in my own marriage had lots of issues come up through, you know, the way that I was raised and my own thinking, my nervous system, the way that it was structured because of my life experience. And so really learning how to work through those things and work on my mindset and to actually notice the things that I was doing to contribute to our problems was just so hugely effective in my own life. 

Jane Copier 04:06 

And so it is just my greatest joy and pleasure to work with my own clients. Now, I have a background in psychology, but got certified in 2019. And I've been working in this field ever since. And so I really, really love working with people who struggle with conflict, people who don't have the tools to communicate, people who don't understand why they react the way they do. And so helping bring clarity and understanding and self awareness to all of that is just my jam. I love it so much. And it's what I love to do. 

Tanya Hale 04:40 

Love it. 

Brooke Oniki 04:42 

Thanks, Jane. I'm Brooke Oniki. I also live in South Jordan, but Jane and I had never met each other until we were in this coaching sphere. So I have my own business, Brooke Oniki Life Coaching, and I generally coach women who are navigating relationships with their adult children. I do coach some men on occasion, and sometimes their kids. Sometimes they'll send me their 24-year-old son who just broke up with his girlfriend and needs a little mindset shift. But I do a podcast, and I support women through private coaching and also small group coaching. 

Brooke Oniki 05:23 

And I think my reasoning for going into this line of work was I had four children in six years, and they came fast, and then they left fast. And as they started to leave, I just had these feelings of, "wow, I have a lot of years left to be alive, and I want to contribute in meaningful ways. I don't want to just sit at home hoping they'll come visit me". And so I just wanted to keep growing and learning and becoming a better person myself so that when my kids did come around, we were all learning and growing. I wasn't just living vicariously through their experiences. And so as they started to leave, I looked into different things that I could do. And when I found life coaching, I was like, "I think that's it. I think that's the thing that really speaks to my strengths and also is just something that's so interesting to me and valuable to me." So the growth that has happened in my own life is probably the greatest benefit. And then to watch it change the lives of my clients has just been so, so rewarding. 

Tanya Hale 06:36 

Oh, Brooke, that's awesome. I love that. And Jane, yours too. I think that's fabulous. My name is Tanya Hale. I am a divorce and difficult relationship coach. I came into this because I had been married for 24 years and ended up getting divorced. And I remember being married and just being in this tough, tough situation. And the whole time I just kept thinking, "what is wrong here? I'm smart. Why can't I figure this out? What is happening? Why? He's a good person. I'm a good person. Why is this so horrible?" And I just, I didn't know. And we ended up getting divorced. 

Tanya Hale 07:17 

And some time after that, I found Brene Brown and started listening to some of her work on vulnerability and shame and pieces started fitting together for me just so quickly. And I was floored by what I started learning and the pieces that I started to understand about what really creates healthy, good relationships and how to move forward from my divorce and get in a better place. And the tools just changed everything. And I also, like you, Jane, got certified in 2019 with this. I had a previous Life Coach certification, but it was more of like a leadership one from the John Maxwell team. But the pieces just made so much sense to me. And I started to clean up my own life and started to get in a really good place. 

Tanya Hale 08:06 

And about six and a half years after my divorce and I had been coaching for a while in there, I met my husband and I dated completely different because of the tools that we have. And I showed up in dating completely different and I looked for very different things in dating because of the tools that I gained. And now the relationship that he and I are creating is just mind boggling to me. And I started off just doing all adult or divorce coaching and I had a podcast as well. And then I had people start calling me for my podcast saying, "I don't want to get divorced, but this relationship, gosh darn it. I don't even know how to, how to clean this up and how to, how to go forward." And so I started doing a lot of difficult relationship coaching as well. And this is just my space where I find so much joy in helping people gain clarity around, "do I want to get divorced or can I clean this up? Can I fix this? And, and what happens there?" And then just helping other people find a lot of satisfaction in the relationships that they have, regardless of how on board or not on board their spouse is in doing some of this work and figuring it out. So yeah, I love that all three of us are midlife coaches. 

Brooke Oniki 09:28 

Um, all certified in 2019. 

Tanya Hale 09:33 

We've all got seven years of experience behind us. We are all just fiercely committed to this work and to the change that it makes in our lives and in the lives of our clients. I know all three of us have experienced huge shifts in our own lives and I know that for me one reason that I'm so converted to this work is because of the change that it's made in my own life. I see the change that it is able to make in my clients' lives and so, yeah, just absolutely love it. 

Tanya Hale 10:05 

Anyway, so Jane and Brooke and I were chatting and we just said, "wouldn't it be fun if we recorded some podcasts together and just talked about some coaching ideas and built on each other's content and shared stuff that we could each put on our respective podcasts," so we thought that would be really fun. 

Tanya Hale 10:21 

So today we are going to be talking about some of the most effective tools that we are able to teach our clients and that we work with that make the biggest difference for them. So like Jane, you want to get us started and yours and let's hear what you got. 

Jane Copier 10:42 

Yeah, I will kick us off. I got to just add that it is such a joy to know these women and this is the joy of coaching. Honestly, like I'm not a good chit-chatter anymore. I find that it's really hard for me to have small talk because when you do this work and it changes who you are in the way that you see things in the way that you see other people, there's so much added depth to your life. And so these coaching tools are great and the one that I want to share with you today and the one that I find really effective with my clients is to help you move from black and white thinking to a more curious mindset. 

Jane Copier 11:22 

From the time that we're little, we come by this rightly because you know, like when you're little, mom and dad have to teach you what is safe and what is dangerous. You know, so playing in the road is dangerous and that is a hard fact for a kid. We do not go in the road. There's cars there. It's dangerous. Getting good grades is good. Right. The opposite would be getting bad grades is bad. You know, but there are these things of certainty these areas of certainty that we learn as children to keep us safe 

Jane Copier 11:55 

There are also things that we do to comply in society to keep everybody kind of working on the same page. We don't murder each other. We don't steal each other's things. These aren't good behaviors; these are bad behaviors. But as we grow up that characterization, not...categorization I suppose is a better word for it, becomes a little bit inappropriate because what our brains like to do is they like to lump people into categories. And when we do this with the people that we love, we miss out on a lot and it makes us not operate from a place of compassion and understanding. It makes us very hard to be around because certainty runs our brain instead of collaboration. 

Jane Copier 12:42 

There's a really great quote. I'm gonna butcher it. Let me see if I can find it here really quick. Let's see. Anais Nin said this once. He said "we don't see things as they are. We see them as we are." And a lot of the ways that we see things come from our background, from our culture, from our familial conditioning, from the things that we learned as kids. For instance, some people believe that having dogs in your house is not good. My parents were those people who did not want animals in the house. And then there are people who believe having four dogs in the house is the most loving thing that you can do. But we categorize each other based on the framework and the things that we were taught as kids. And so when we see the world in absolutes in black and white, we fail to capture those nuances, those complexities of reality and it keeps us from loving people, from learning to love unconditionally. 

Jane Copier 13:40 

So the way that we do this, and there's a few different ways that I like to suggest, but there are some techniques that I like and the first one is to get just really curious when your brain offers a statement like "this thing is true." So let's just say for the sake of an example, you have a belief that all Democrats or all Republicans are good people or bad people. When we put people into categories like that we don't see the middle and the middle is often where the truth lies. So when we categorize people as evil or good, we are lumping all the people into that category and we're missing out on the common things that we actually agree upon. 

Jane Copier 14:02 

I saw a little news poll on one of the news channels, I don't watch the news that much, but I happened to see it and they were talking about how they had surveyed American people to see how many people feel like we share common beliefs. And the number was extraordinarily high, something like 80% or higher, that most people believe that we have common beliefs. The fringe, the people, the black and white thinkers who categorize people all evil or all good, were the ones who did not  think we had those common beliefs. And it's just not true. And it can create anxiety and depression. Because if we think that things are just the way that they are, there's no hope for change. So when we see our spouse in a way that characterizes them as good or bad in any situation, then we are not allowing for the truth, which is, again, somewhere in the middle. So even when we feel justified, even when our brain really, really argues for our belief, for our statement, for our conviction, if we can get curious and say, "what else might be true here?" It really does help open the brain to consider different ideas. 

Jane Copier 14:02 

I love the idea that we can boss our brain around. Our lower brain likes to run the show, our lower brain operates on that motivational triad, which is conserve energy, seek pleasure and avoid pain. And when we do this, we just react instead of acting on purpose. So when we ask the question and instruct the brain to, "hey, go find the middle, what else is true here?" then we can discover that for ourselves. 

Jane Copier 14:02 

So for instance, if I have an idea that my husband is being very selfish, and I think "he's so selfish," I also like to use the word and when I have a blanket statement like that, a black and white statement, I like to add the word "and." "My husband is so selfish AND he's also very kind and loving at times." "Democrats are so evil. And I have a lot of friends who are Democrats that I love." You know, if we just add and it pushes my brain to search for what else might be true. So opening our mind to different possibilities is just a such a healthy and a mature thing to do. It helps us to choose to see new things in any circumstance, or any person in our lives. So if we're struggling with our mother-in-law or with our daughter, or our son or our neighbor, instead of categorizing them, get very specific to separate them from the behavior. 

Jane Copier 17:28 

I think that all of us want to be given grace at times, we all want to get that easy pass button. Like when we make a mess out of things, or when we say things that get us into trouble, if I say something and I didn't mean it, and I was in a really regressed moment, I really appreciate it when someone can give me a pass and say, "you know what, I know Jane, that's really not like her. She must be having a bad day." That feels really good. And so when we can do this for ourselves, and we can isolate behavior from a person without attacking their character, I think that's helpful for all of us. That makes a better society. That makes a better, healthier, happier relational society. So when we have those black and white thoughts about someone that we love, really isolate it. 

Jane Copier 18:18 

So going back to the example of my husband, I want to say like, when I had the thought, "he's so selfish right now," I could say, okay, what exactly did he do that makes me think this? And I can isolate that down and say, "oh, okay, well, he took two hours away from our home, went on a Saturday when we were planning to work together to clean out the garage." So that's one behavior. That's not an attack on his character. And so getting really truth about what the actual circumstance is, instead of making that attack is really, really helpful. So that's just one of the ways that I like to help my clients wrap their brain around who their partner is, what their differences are, and how we can find a place to meet in the middle from a place of compassion and love. 

Tanya Hale 19:08 

I love that. I was working with the client just this morning and we were talking about judgment. And what is the opposite of judgment? And we decided that it was curiosity rather than saying "they're right" or "they're wrong." Instead, moving into curiosity and saying, "huh, I wonder what I don't understand that they understand. I wonder what they see that I don't see." And I loved our conversation. It just really kind of opened up this space of moving into doing exactly what you're talking about. Like we're not putting them in one camp or the other. Instead, we're moving into, "oh, let me understand this person and see what's, what's going on for them that I don't get." 

Jane Copier 19:54 

Yeah. And I think sometimes we just see our beliefs in such a powerful way, where we feel so convicted about what we believe that it's hard to hold space for other people's beliefs. So I think one of the things that was really helpful for me when I was learning to become a coach was to practice the thought, "I know nothing." Because when we listen to our clients, instead of making judgments about the things that they're bringing to us, and assuming that we have the answer to all of that, it's really helpful to listen from a space of just thinking, "I know nothing, let me just gather information." And I find that that is really helpful with other relationships as well, just to keep repeating to myself, "I know nothing, let me learn here, what can I learn here?" And so you're right, curiosity is so important to helping build good relationships where both people feel understood. And that both viewpoints feel, even if we don't agree that it's acceptable to have differing points of view. 

Tanya Hale 21:01 

Thank you. Yeah, love it. Powerful tools. 

Jane Copier 21:06 

Yeah, it really is. This one tool alone, if you could incorporate this into your life, can be so life-changing. It changes who we are at our heart because it does help us to lean into compassion, to lean into really seeking to see someone else as a child of God, even though they're different. We're all different parts of that body of Christ. Maybe she's the pinky, and I'm the femur. Who knows? But just because we're different doesn't mean that both perspectives aren't needed. 

Tanya Hale 21:36 

Mm-hmm. 

Jane Copier 21:38 

Unvalued. 

Brooke Oniki 21:43 

That really ties in well with the tool that I wanted to share with you today, because all or nothing thinking often comes because we feel threatened by the view of another person, right? If they believe this and I believe this, then we can't reconcile. Or this need to be right, you know? And so the tool that has been super helpful to me is just understanding how to regulate your nervous system, that it's true that our thoughts create how we feel when we're in that rational space of using our prefrontal cortex where we can reason, where we can compromise, where we have problem solving capabilities, all of those things. 

Brooke Oniki 22:26 

But sometimes we're in a situation where we feel very threatened all of the sudden. And so I can't really access that rational thinking. So I've got to get back into that. I like to call it my zone of resilience, where I can hear feedback, where I can be curious, where I can listen to another person's perspective, where I can also understand and share my perspective, right? Because I'm in a calm nervous system. 

Brooke Oniki 22:57 

So I'll just share a couple of examples and talk to you a little bit about how I share with clients. But I had a client that I'd worked with for quite a while, and he was on a road trip with his wife. And it was quite a long trip. I think they had about 10 hours before they were going to get home. And he was feeling a little agitated. And so when he feels agitated, he hums. And so he started humming in the car. And he's there with his wife and teenage son. And his wife said, "stop humming." And he said immediately, "I can feel my nervous system just spike. Like, who does she think she is? Here I am trying to regulate myself. And she's telling me to quit humming." And he said, you know, there's this moment between stimulus and response where we get to decide what we're going to do, right? And we are feeling calm. And then all of a sudden, we're faced with something. Someone makes a comment or something that feels passive aggressive or whatever it is. And all of a sudden, it seems like we're on high alert. 

Brooke Oniki 24:04 

And he said, "but in that moment, I had to think I've got 10 hours in the car with her. Like I can say something, I can say something or be snarky back to her. But what will it cost me? What will the next hours be like if that's what I choose?" And so he said, "I just decided to lighten the mood a little bit. And I just started pretending like I was meditating." He said, I just went home and she started laughing and their son started laughing. And he said, "and then we didn't really talk about it. And then maybe an hour later, I just explained, like, 'sometimes I hum when I'm feeling a little triggered or out of sorts or uncomfortable or whatever. And so that's why I was humming.'" And then she explained how she was feeling. 

Brooke Oniki 24:55 

But because they were then in a regulated space, they could have a constructive conversation about that. But he knew because of the work we'd done together, that there is that little space where you have a decision to make. And it feels in the moment, often, like the the most powerful thing to do is to let them know that they're bothering you, to let them know they've put you out in some way. Because there's this illusion of power that comes with getting angry or making the the passive aggressive comment. But the aftermath of that is a lot more repair. Right? If I can manage my nervous system in that moment, it doesn't mean that I'm a doormat, that I never talk about it. 

Brooke Oniki 25:45 

That's something that often comes up with clients: "So I'm just supposed to let them do whatever they want or say whatever they want. And I'm never supposed to get upset." And that's not what we're talking about. We want to have a conversation about the difference or the conflict if it's still a conflict once you're in that regulated nervous system. If you're still thinking about it the next day, but now you're in a calmer space, then you can say, "you know, yesterday, when we had that conversation, that was really hard for me." And you can explain why and "tell me, I want to understand where you were coming from," right? But it's a very different conversation than the one that you have when you're in that elevated space. 

Jane Copier 26:31 

Question real quick. So when you have a client who shares an experience like this with you, and I think we've all experienced it before where we just, we have a thought that triggers an emotion and we feel flooded or I've even seen clients too, when they have had a trauma in their life where the thought and the feeling are so tied together, there's really not that moment of pause. It's just, it's very flooding in the moment. So how do you recommend that your clients regulate and get back to that? 

Brooke Oniki 27:06 

There are so many things that we can try. Sometimes we need to just remove ourselves from the situation, like "I need to process through what you just said for a minute so I'm gonna go into another room," maybe I need to go on a walk, maybe I need to journal about it. Sometimes deep breathing, just having some deep breaths or just sitting down and relaxing my body into a chair where I try to let my body go limp so that I can just relax all my muscles. Often you've got tension in your neck or your shoulders or you feel like your heart is racing, right. And and so your body is gonna tell you that your nervous system is dysregulated. It's not like you have to go "hmm, am I all right?" Like clearly you can feel that your body is screaming to you that you are in an unsafe place now, right? And so I'm the only one who knows that. So I'm the one who's gonna have to take care of it. 

Brooke Oniki 28:00 

So in the beginning it's just awareness, like I may not realize it until after the fact. But with this particular client we had worked together enough that he had learned how to slow that down so that when it happened he's like "oh, I'm in this juncture where I have a choice, where I can either be snarky back or I can just take a minute or I can try to diffuse it with humor," or you know whatever, you know. And he didn't have the luxury of getting out of the car. I suppose he could have said "you know, maybe we need to stop for a minute. I'm gonna walk around the rest area for a little while," if necessary right, but he was able to diffuse it in that situation. So there's not a step one step to always do this, but I do teach my clients lots of different techniques. 

Brooke Oniki 28:55 

Like breathing is something that's so easy You can't regulate your heartbeat but you can regulate your breathing just by choosing to slow your breathing down. So some people will do box breathing where they, you know, breathe in for four seconds and out for three and then in for four. Or the physiological sigh which is a long inhale and then just a tiny inhale like kind of like a sip of water up at the top and then just letting go of that breath really really slowly and it just that concentration on the breath is useful. And also the slowness of it is really useful. So if I can do things to regulate my insides I can bring that high anxiety down to a more regulated space. and certainly breathing isn't is something we can do in the moment there are pillars of nervous system regulation like getting good sleep and nutrition and sunlight and movement and having good relationships. And those are things we should be working on ongoing but sometimes in that moment I can't go on a four-mile walk right and so that's where things like breathing come into play. 

Brooke Oniki 30:11 

Or even...I love the idea and I've tried it before as well like if you're in a Thanksgiving and there's a political conversation that's all of a sudden turning uncomfortable for you, I can like wiggle my toes in my shoes, right, I can rub my palms together anything that will allow me to get back in my body instead of be whizzing up here in my brain. Those are the things that we want to do to try to bring that level down and if I need to excuse myself for a few minutes then by all means I'm gonna take care of that. 

Brooke Oniki 30:49 

If I need to and if I'm in a conversation with someone that I love and it gets heated, I can teach my clients to have ground rules. Like, if the conversation gets hard we can stop at any time and continue in a few hours or in a minute or tomorrow right we want to make sure everybody feels like it's safe to back out for a minute. If we need to because sometimes when we're talking about things that feel like they're really high stakes like, you know, if I feel hurt in my marriage or if my child shares some you know derogatory thing about my parenting or they've decided to leave our faith tradition or whatever it is that that's feeling really high stakes then we have to understand that our nervous system is going to react to those things and we might be emotional or we might be sad or "you know, I need to think about this. I didn't know that's what you were going to share with me today. So I'm going to have to think about this for a little while. It's hard for me to hear, but I love you and I want to understand you. And so I want to be able to process through that before we talk about it further." 

Brooke Oniki 32:07 

So it's a practice. It's not something that you read a couple of tips and then you know how to do it. I think that's why coaching is so beautiful because you become aware and then you practice and then you return and talk about it some more and talk about things that have gone well and things that haven't, or what's resonating and what's not. And then we practice again, right? It's not something that you're just going to listen to a course and be better or, you know, what I mean? It's a lifelong practice. In fact, I just went to talk to someone that I really respect about some challenges I'm having. And he said, "don't you teach people how to do this?" I said, "I do. And I'm also learning to do it myself." AndI am miles ahead where I would have been if I didn't have coaching. I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful for what it's taught me and how it's blessed the relationships I have, especially with my kids. But we still go through things that are hard and we have unmet expectations and we have people using their agency in different ways than we expected. Right? And so we're all learning and we're all growing. 

Jane Copier 33:24 

I think one of the things that I love the most about what you're saying is that you're focusing on yourself in the moment and not placing blame on whoever you think is making you feel this way, right? It's just in that moment claiming, "Oh, I'm noticing that I'm feeling disregulated. I'm feeling triggered in some way. Let me take care of me rather than you stop your behavior. So I don't have to feel this way." That's such a healthy and an adult way of approaching a problem. 

Brooke Oniki 33:57 

Yeah. And it's so helpful. Like when your kids tell you something that you feel is hard, like my very first question always is, "tell me what you're going to do with your kids. Like, how do you wish it would have been? And how do you want to do it differently?" Because then I can get even more insight about what their experience was. My daughter has told me her friends tell her their moms will always say, "I guess I was just a terrible mother," and then the daughter feels like, "oh, they can't hear what I have to say." Like, because they were making it all about them. Kids oftentimes just want you to witness what they experienced and, and our kids, they experienced hard things in our home, even if we were trying to protect them, right? They all knew people at school or in other places that, you know, they've had lots of interactions and also they have filtered life through their experiences. 

Brooke Oniki 34:57 

And so we, as much as we tried to do our best, they all had some traumatic events in their life when they lived under your roof, right? And some of those happen because of you, right? And that's not because you're a bad mother, but you look at your own life and you know that there are some things that were hard from your own upbringing. And it wasn't, most of us had parents that were trying really hard, right? But we still have, because we're mortals being raised by mortals being raised by mortals, we have challenges, right? And so thinking that our kids shouldn't have any challenges or shouldn't have had any wounds living in our home, it causes us to be defensive, right? And if we can just accept that there were, and some of them were probably of our own making, I just try really hard to say, "I'm sorry that that's," you know, and sometimes my kids will tell me things I said and I'll go, "I can't believe I would have said that," but it doesn't matter if I said it, because that's what they remember, right? And so I just think letting them know that you're sorry and that you love them. And I don't even think they necessarily need it to be fixed as much as just seen, right? 

Tanya Hale 36:23 

Because I think they know that we can't go back and change the past. They know that, that they want their pain to be witnessed. 

Brooke Oniki 36:32 

Yeah. And so if I'm so, so dysregulated, because I feel so threatened by their feedback, then I can't hear them. Right? I can't witness their pain. And I want to witness it. Like I want to be someone who honors the challenges that they faced and shows them respect. And it doesn't mean that I have to think I was a terrible parent. That always is confusing to people. Right? If I say, "I'm so sorry that hurt you," that doesn't mean I'm saying that I was an awful parent. It's just like, "I'm sorry that that's that, that was never my intent." And, and I think they even know it wasn't your intent, but that's how they felt at the time.  And so I do think just witnessing it, but it takes me staying in that zone of resilience or recognizing that I'm going out and I'm in fight or flight, and I need to get myself back in there before I can have a really honest conversation. Because from that regulated nervous system, I can access thoughts that are helpful to me and emotions that are useful to me. And I can be an emotionally present person when I'm in that space. But when I'm not, it's really hard to access that. And so we just have to recognize, like, "Oh, I feel like I'm going out and I need to come back in." 

Jane Copier 38:04 

Good. So good, Brooke. Good stuff. So good. Tanya, what's you got? 

Tanya Hale 38:12 

Alright. So again, I work with people who are often considering divorce, or somewhere along their divorce journey, and with people who are just in really difficult relationships. And I have found that with my clients, one of the most powerful things that we work on is allowing the other person to be an adult human who gets to make their own choices and who gets to be themselves rather than expecting them to be the person that we want them to be or to change themselves somehow. And so I talk about with my coaching a lot with my clients is that we step into this place called the relationship circle. And I like to have them envision three circles side by side and one end circle and they're just touching on the edges. One end circle is the spouse, one end circle is them. And then the middle is the relationship circle. And so we are not the relationship. 

Tanya Hale 39:15 

I am in charge in my own circle, I'm in charge of my happiness, my sadness, my goals, my dreams, my progress, my growth, my whatever else, all of that is mine. And conversely, my spouse's is all of his, but we step into this relationship as two complete individuals. And our job in that relationship is not to morph into the same people. We still have to be our own individual circles, but our job is to step into this place where we learn to make space for each other, for each other, being their own individual, their own person who gets to have their own ideas, their own dreams, their own desires. And some of those are going to align with ours. And some of them are not, because we're different people. And so in that relationship circle, I like to imagine that there's a table. And so when we come into the relationship circle, I get to put all my stuff on the table and my spouse gets to look at all that stuff, but he just gets to look. He doesn't get to touch it. He doesn't get to pick it up and try and maneuver it and finagle it a little bit and put it back down or even take it back to his circle to fix it and bring it back. When I put something on the table, he just gets to go, "Oh wow, look at that." And he gets to validate me. And he gets to say, "that looks like that's really tough. That sounds like it's really, really challenging for you." And he gets to ask me questions about it. And he gets to say, "how can I support you?" But he doesn't get, it's not, nothing that I put on the table is his to fix. It's not even his to really have an opinion on. It's just his to say, "Oh, this is what she's working through right now. My job as her partner is to figure out how can I best support her as she figures this out for herself." 

Tanya Hale 41:09 

Because here's the deal about all humans, even down to our youngest little 18 month old, who's just learning how to speak. We all want to do it ourselves. You know, my little grandson used to always say, "no, I do it." Right? Like we all from our youngest time, we want to be in charge of ourselves. We want to be autonomous. I want to clean up my own stuff. I want to take charge of my own life. We don't want somebody coming in and fixing. And so as we learn to stay in our lane and to just say, "listen, that is your, all that stuff on the table, that's your responsibility. I care that you're going through that. And I want to support you the best that I can. But it is not mine to clean up. It's not mine to fix. It's not mine to do anything with. It's yours. But gosh, I love you. And I see you going through this difficult thing. And I care about you. And maybe I can't fix anything on the table, but gosh, can I rub your shoulders for a bit?" Right? It's this space of you are your own person in this circle with me. And I get to honor that. 

Tanya Hale 42:20 

And I think sometimes we see struggles in a more religious community when one spouse wants to step away from the religion that they began their marriage on. And they want to step back. And there has to be a space where we honor their agency to make that decision for them. And where we just, rather than trying to coerce them or condemn them or judge them for the decisions that they're making, the work is ours to learn "how do I create a safe space for him to work through what he's working through? And how do I allow him his agency to change his mind about what he wanted to do however many years ago. And how do I just learn to love him in the course of that?" Because at that point, what he is doing is about me only in the sense that I get to learn how to accept him and love him for who he is with whatever it is that he is bringing and putting on the table. And so learning how to just really accept this other person to stay in my own lane and not stray over and try and "help" them, which I put help in a little quotation marks, right? Because it's not helping when we're trying to coerce them or trying to get them to see things from our point of view. That's not helpful. 

Tanya Hale 43:59 

What's helpful is standing back into this place of curiosity that says, "oh, help me understand, help me see what you're thinking and what led you to this and what's going on." And when we create a safe space for them, rather than a judging place, a place where we try and shame them, a place where we try and show them all the ways that they're wrong and we're right, that just breaks down the relationship even more. And so people in difficult relationships or people who are considering divorce, this is one of the first things we talk about, is how do we treat this other person? How do we honor them as a human adult who gets to make all of their own choices? And how do I stay in my own lane and focus on what I can do, which is love them better, love them as they work through this? How do I learn to create a safe space for them? Because that's my responsibility. 

Jane Copier 45:02 

I love the idea of the table. Can I just ask a question because this is something... obviously I work with in relationships too. But I think that culturally so many of us think that that table is our place for our fix-it list. And so it's interesting that you specify this is just a table to look at. So how do you help your clients shift from bringing this list of these are the things you need to fix in order to make me happy to these are the things that I'm trying to come to grips with. These are the things I'm working around, but it's not yours to fix because there is that expectation so often in marriage when people want their partner to fix things for them. 

Tanya Hale 45:45 

Yeah, I think that's such a great question. I think some of the other foundational work that we do is helping us realize what is mine and what is theirs and what can I control and what can't I control. And showing up with a list of "you need to do, you know, bullet, bullet, bullet, bullet" is never going to be helpful in a relationship situation because I cannot control whether they do it. Now, can I make requests? Of course I can. And back to the point that you made earlier, Jane, or maybe it was you guys. Sorry, I forget. But like, of course we can make requests, right? We don't just stand back and become that doormat. We get to make requests. We get to have these difficult conversations. But in the end, we get to realize that this other person in the relationship with, they get to do whatever they want to do. And it's not our job to fix that. And it's not their job to just take our list and go, "oh, yes, dear." 

Tanya Hale 46:49 

I think "yes, dear" are two very, very harmful words in our relationships, right? Because it's one person just going into like, "I have to do this to keep them happy" rather than "I want to show up loving this person." And so really helping them say like, "listen, it is not their job to make you happy by fixing all of these things. They could never fix these things and you are still responsible for you. You are still responsible for how do I want to show up when this person behaves this way?" You know, being as I work with people who are considering divorce, sometimes the situations are such that there are non-negotiables going on. There are things that they say, "yeah, this is not okay with me and it will never be okay with me. And I don't believe that I can live with this behavior." And, and I think that that's okay. I think we get to make that decision sometimes. And I think it's really important that I clean up all my behaviors before I make that decision. 

Tanya Hale 47:57 

And that's one thing when I work with my divorce clients, it's like, listen, let's clean up all of your passive. Well, we're never going to clean them all up, right? But let's become more aware of where are we being passive aggressive? Where are we being controlling? Where are we undermining them? Where are we jabbing? Where are we nitpicking? Like let's clean up that stuff. Let's become aware of it and clean it up. And then let's see who this person is when we're not showing up with all of those behaviors that are so hurtful and harmful. 

Brooke Oniki 48:31 

But we're not bullying them at the table when we're not pushing their books off or telling them they're dumb or whatever, right? When we really are, you know, my husband, one of his qualms is he says, "I do think that you should have expectations of me. That's why we got married." So like, we're not just two private entities, you know? And so I do think the idea, like, we don't want to have a toxic independence, right? We are in relation with one another. And so we want, we want to be good partners to each other and we want to try to meet each other's needs. But if I'm solely expecting you to meet all my needs, and I'm not taking any responsibility for them, I don't think, I just don't think you can ever get to a good place, right? You have to take ownership. 

Tanya Hale 49:22 

I agree. And I think the expectations in marriage, I think many of us...when I got married the first time we I went into that marriage just thinking that the expectations were understood. You know, yeah, then let's sit down and let's have a talk about what the expectations are. I'm working with a client right now who just got married a week and a half ago. And so we're having a lot of these discussions about what," let's talk about your expectations with each other. And let's figure out this place rather than you just over here fuming because he's not doing it the way that you think he should." Right? Let's talk about, oh, you know what, "my brain always imagined that marriage would look like this and that we would do things this way. And I'm seeing that you do it very differently. Tell me about that. Tell me about how you're doing it and why you're doing it that way and what's happening," and realizing that his parents did it one way, your parents did it another way, and you too get to create your own unique way. And so really creating this space of honoring the other person's agency to be their own human and not expect them to just line up and do all the things that we think they should be doing. They don't have to, you know, we do get to have those expectations, especially in a marriage relationship. I think it's important that those expectations are discussed and that they're very clear. 

Jane Copier 51:00 

Yes. I think there's a difference between an expectation, like I think it's okay and reasonable if you're in a monogamous marriage to expect that your spouse is faithful to you. These are healthy expectations that expectations that run us off the rails are the ones where we want someone else to manage our emotional health. And I think that's the beauty of coaching. And I think each one of us have talked about this in that it's about personal responsibility. And as much as sometimes we hate to take that personal responsibility because it's hard, it's the key to everything. It's the key to happiness. It's the key to self-fulfillment. It's the key to a harmonious relationship because you take on yourself what belongs to you in a mature way and you allow your partner to do the same. So we don't have to live codependently. We can just exist together in a really healthy dynamic where we're both managing ourselves and not placing that burden on each other 

Tanya Hale 52:00 

I love that Brooke Castillo, the lady who started the life coach school where all of us were were certified, I love...I'm going to put a caveat on this, but I love that she used to say, listen, I do my work, my husband does his work, and then we show up in relationship and we just have fun together. And I think it's more than just fun, but I think the basic idea that I am responsible for my work. He's responsible for his work, and we come together not just to have fun, but to support each other, to engage with each other, to build a relationship circle that is beautiful and fulfilling and engaging. It's a place that we want to come and be with that other person because it feeds our souls. 

Jane Copier 52:51 

Beautiful. So, so good. 

Tanya Hale 52:55 

Anyway, that was fun. 

Jane Copier 52:56 

Yeah, I love learning from both of you. I've got some good, good nuggets from both of you today. 

Tanya Hale 53:03 

Alright, any last thoughts before we kind of wrap this one up? 

Jane Copier 53:11 

Okay. 

Brooke Oniki 53:11 

I don't think so. I do think, I guess I would just share, um, it's work worth doing. You know, I think sometimes we feel like, "Oh, that's too hard" or, "the patterns are too ingrained," but I am finding even in my marriage and also in my relationships with my kids, that it's really powerful, meaningful work. And that even after you've been married a long time, you can discover things about each other that you didn't know and ways to be supportive and ways to see them more clearly and develop love that's deeper and more meaningful. And so I think sometimes we think, "well, it's been too long and too hard. I just need a different partner." And in some cases, if things, you know, if there are non-negotiables, but in a lot of cases, I think there's a lot of meaningful work that's really worth doing. 

Tanya Hale 54:17 

I 100% agree. Yeah. 

Jane Copier 54:20 

This is the best. I think we're all living witnesses of that, you know, like it's so impactful. 

Brooke Oniki 54:27 

So when your brain wants to tell you like, "oh, it would be too hard or uncomfortable or it's too late," like I just think, you know, we could just even say to ourselves, "maybe I'm wrong about that. Maybe it's not too late. Maybe there are ways that I could make this relationship more like I want it to be, because it's my relationship, so I'm in charge of making it what I want it to be." 

Tanya Hale 54:54 

And we're never going to create something different in our life unless we do something different. And I tell my clients, I'm like, Listen, this is capital W work. You know, it's hard stuff. And especially the first couple of weeks we work together, you might not like me very much. Because I'm going to tell you some hard truths, and you're not going to be used to hearing those hard truths. And, and it's uncomfortable. And my clients are always like, "Oh, yeah, this is the hardest work I've ever done in my life. And it's the most meaningful, because it creates the most beautiful sense of self within us. And that allows for the most beautiful relationships to blossom and to grow into these beautiful, beautiful relationships. So well said. Thank you. 

Jane Copier 55:45 

Thank you ladies, it was good to check in with you. Alright. 

Tanya Hale 55:49 

Hopefully we'll do another one of these in the future. I think this would be great fun. 

Jane Copier 55:55 

Sounds good, thank you. 

Tanya Hale 55:57 

See ya!