Tanya Hale 00:00 

Hey there. Welcome to Intentional Living with Tanya Hale. This is episode number 363, "Breaking Your Over- and Under Functioning Cycles with Jane Copier." Welcome to your place for finding greater happiness through intentional growth, because we don't just fall into the life of our dreams...we choose to create it. This is Tanya Hale and I'm your host for Intentional Living. 

Tanya Hale 00:24 

Alright. Hello there, my friends. Welcome to the podcast. As always, just happy to be sharing with you some great content that I've got, and happy to have you here and have you on this journey of what I call capital W Work. This is difficult stuff to be sure and it is the most valuable stuff that we get to do. I just cannot believe the transformation that coaching has made in my own life and I'm so grateful for it and I'm grateful to be able to share this information, this content, these tools with you, because I know that properly applied you will have a better, stronger, happier, more satisfying, more engaging life. All the good things are available to you as you step into this work. Your life will get better doing this work. I know that for sure. 

Tanya Hale 01:21 

Alright. Before we jump in today, I want to remind you that Talk with Tanya is coming up on June 10th and you're not going to want to miss that. If you have not signed up for it, you're going to go to tanyahale.com. You can go to the "group coaching" tab and there will be a place there where you can sign up for this free webinar. It is just a place for you to come and join in all the conversations about whatever you get coached. You can just participate as much or as little as you want to in these calls and they are just, they've just been so fun and so insightful. So I would love to have you join us there if that is an option for you. 

Tanya Hale 02:05 

And so today I want to introduce you. Our topic is going to be over- and under-functioning. This is a topic that I came across, oh gosh, when I first found Brené Brown, before I knew all of this work. She mentions over- and under-functioning in her book and I was fascinated by the concept and it's been on a back burner for the entire time that I've been doing a podcast. I'm doing one on this and I just never have gotten around to it. There's always been other things that I've wanted to talk about and so now we are going to be talking about over- and under-functioning. I had my friend Jane Copier, who has a podcast as well called Happy in the Middle, she did one on this and I was like, "oh, I loved her approach," and so I wanted to bring her on. You're going to love Jane. She is just a fabulous coach, a good friend, and so happy to share with you this conversation that I had with Jane about over- and under-functioning. Alright, Jane, welcome to the podcast today. So glad to have you. 

Jane Copier 03:05 

Thank you. I'm so happy to be here. It's always so good to see you and chat with you. 

Tanya Hale 03:10 

it's been a little bit of a while since we've had a chance to do that. So I would love for you to first of all introduce yourself and the kind of coaching that you do and just go from there. 

Jane Copier 03:19 

Alright. Perfect. Well, um, you and I trained at the same school at the Life Coach School. I am a marriage and family relationship coach for Christian women. Specifically, I am a member of The church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but, um, I coach all kinds of different faiths. I have lots of clients who are from other denominations and also Jewish faith. I mean, it's just, I find that these tools are needed by everyone. But I think it's important to kind of point that out just because you know that I come from a lens of faith and I, that does come up in my coaching quite a bit. 

Tanya Hale 03:59 

Yeah, so Jane and I met, I don't know, probably four or five years ago, right? 

Jane Copier 04:05 

I think it's even longer than that. Well, yeah, maybe even six at this point. I don't know. 

Tanya Hale 04:12 

Yeah. It's been a while, but it was just great. And I just fell in love with you right up front. I loved what you did. And you and I do a lot of the same work. We both work with middle-aged people, a lot of women, and I think we both get men occasionally as well. We both have done middle-aged as part of our focus at some point, but we also both do a lot of marriage and relationships and adult kids. And just these midlife relationships are just so, so tricky. 

Jane Copier 04:41 

Um, yeah, they can be, it can be a real challenge. There's so many things that are happening in midlife as you're changing all the dynamics. Your kids are leaving the home and your husband and you have a different perspective. You have more time on your hands. You're pressured to actually look at your relationship because you don't have so many distractions. And so there's just a lot to work through to kind of heal those things that have been neglected. There's a lot that happens in midlife and that's why we have so many people who experience a midlife crisis and kind of blow up their lives midlife, but you know, there is a solution and coaching is, I just think, the best tool ever. 

Tanya Hale 05:23 

Yeah, I was speaking with some of my other coach friends a few weeks ago, and one of them was working through a process of something. And afterwards, she sent a text out to the group. And she's like, "how in the world did I do life before coaching?"And all of us were like, "Ditto," right? Like, I have no idea how I functioned before coaching because it helps to get the drama out. It helps us to see clearly, it helps us to show up more the way that we want to, it helps us to understand what is going on below the surface that is churning the waters. 

Jane Copier 05:58 

It terrifies me honestly to think of where my life might be had I not discovered coaching. I really myself was ready to leave my marriage. I was, you know, I've looked at the struggles that I've had with my adult children as they have changed their beliefs and navigating different faith ideas, political ideas, all that kind of stuff. And for us to be this nuclear, beautiful family that we all get along. We enjoy each other's company. I'm telling you it has been work, but because I have these coaching tools, it's successful. And honestly, I know that I could have completely blown my family up. We would be there. I just can look back and see how bad it could have been. Had I not learned how to manage myself, manage my brain, um, create the relationships that I want intentionally. And it's just such a blessing in my life for sure. 

Tanya Hale 07:02 

I agree. When I look back at the trajectory that I was on before. And not because I was a bad person. Like I really was a good person. I wanted to do good things. I just did not understand the dysfunctional behaviors that were wreaking so much havoc in my relationships and pushing people away and letting people know or giving the impression that I really don't care about you as much as, you know, as much as I thought I was. My behaviors were very dismissive and even unkind sometimes, though I didn't even see it. It's so fascinating because I think we all kind of do what we know. You know, we behave in our marriage the way that was modeled for us. We create relationships with other people in a way that was modeled for us and that's part of the learning process. And so you can't beat yourself up for not knowing what you didn't know. 

Tanya Hale 07:58 

But I love, like Oprah says, "when you know better, you do better." And that is what coaching does. Because it teaches you a better way, a better way of creating a relationship instead of being reactive, instead of just responding or defending yourself all the time. It's just, it's such a wiser, more mature perspective, you know, instead of showing up just the way that you've learned to show up. You can actually humble yourself and say, "okay, teach me a better way." And then you're willing to learn it and willing to implement it. It just makes all the difference. 

Tanya Hale 08:38 

Yeah, I agree. I just cannot get over how different my life is now. What it was before I found this love of coaching and those patterns of behavior that we have been engaging in unconsciously for all of these years that are so destructive. And we just don't even see them because they've always been there. You know, it's the water that we're swimming in, right? 

Jane Copier 09:04 

Totally. Are we think it's right, because it's what we know.

Tanya Hale 09:07 

Right, and we don't question it. We don't even look at it and go, "huh, what is that?" And I think that that's what coaching has offered me is the opportunity to look at a lot of my basic standard day-to-day behaviors and go, "hmm, is that what I want? Is that doing what I think it's doing?" And a lot of times I find that, "oh, it's not doing what I think it's doing at all." 

Jane Copier 09:28 

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I think that kind of ties in with our topic today so well, because women who over-function, we do it from this place of feeling like we are right, that this is the correct way. And over-functioning really is taking responsibility for other people's tasks. It's taking responsibility for their emotions, for their outcomes. And it looks like doing a lot of things for other people that they could do for themselves, but it doesn't come from a clean place. It comes from a place of wanting to control. It comes from a place of fear that "if I don't do this, I don't earn my worth or things won't work out correctly." You know, we just really dive in to this place that creates a lot of resentment, because we overwhelm ourselves. We take on what's not ours. And that's a lot of work for someone to turn that around. And it's difficult because if that's your mode of operation, you feel like it's part of your identity, almost that this is who I am. "And everyone really admires me because I'm so good at functioning, so good at showing up and doing all the things." It is part of our identity. And that shift can be a little bit uncomfortable, but your mental health really, really needs it. Your body needs it. That level of stress can really wreak havoc on you long-term health. 

Tanya Hale 11:06 

Right. I 100% agree. You know, I first encountered the term over-functioning and under-functioning when I was listening to Brene Brown's "The Power of Vulnerability," which was, and I've mentioned it several times here on the podcast before, it was life-changing for me. It was my first big aha after my divorce that went, "Oh, wait a minute. There's some serious pieces having to do with relationships that I have not even understood or seen before." And so will you start off, like, really, I love what you've said about over-functioning thus far. Will you give a more concise...let me just tell everybody first, the reason I have Jane on here today is because she recently just did a podcast on over-functioning and under-functioning. And I was like, "Oh, she was so brilliant in how you described it." And so I thought, "let's just have Jane on because your podcast on it was so great." But will you start off with a definition on over-functioning and under-functioning just so that we can have some real clarity to start off with? 

Jane Copier 12:11 

Yeah, over-functioning is, again, just taking on what doesn't belong to you in an effort to control. It comes from a place of fear that things won't turn out the way that you want them to it is. It's a form of control. It's false control, because any sense of control that we have is false. It really is like you and I, we cannot tell you what's going to happen tomorrow. We might think that we might know, we might have all planned out on our schedule. But things happen. Like, truly, you cannot control what you think that you can. And I think this is a common problem for most women. Like we really feel like, yeah, we can. And it feels like a real need. And that need comes from a place of insecurity, or even, I would even consider it sometimes a trauma response in that like, if "I don't show up, if I don't do all the things, if I don't over-function, if I don't manage everything..." 

Jane Copier 13:07 

And one of the examples that I used on my podcast was talking about, you know, when when our kids were young, we traveled a lot for their sports and for activities and you know, vacations and things like that. It seems like I was always packing, always, always, always packing and unpacking laundry, all the things. And I was making myself crazy, because I would be the one to pack for everyone, you know, and then I graduated, I made the list, gave it to the kids, had them pack, and then I would go through and make sure everything was fine, I'd pack for my husband, because I wouldn't want to him to forget something, heaven forbid, you know, that he had to learn a lesson about not packing what he needed for himself, you know, and then I just simmer, I just remember being in the car and driving and just simmering going, "this was so much work. This was so hard." And just being so resentful. And I was the one creating all of it. And that's a perfect example of what over-functioning is like: when we insist on doing everything, when we don't invite people into the kitchen to work with us, when we don't delegate, or we don't collaborate and say, "okay, this is the task, how can we all do it together?" We isolate ourselves, we put all that pressure on ourselves, and then we're miserable and we blame everyone else. 

Tanya Hale 14:34 

Yeah. And I just love these examples because I think as women we've kind of been taught that, listen, it's your job to make sure that everything runs smoothly. It's your job to have a peaceful home, to have all of these things. And we start to think  that, "Oh, well, this is part of what I have to do. I have to control all the things so that everything runs smoothly." It's like that magical Christmas morning experience. Oh gosh. We think that we can control all the things. And so we go into this hyper over-functioning, right? Which in a lot of language that I use on my podcast is getting into other people's lanes. I'm doing things for other people that they really are capable of doing for themselves. And yet I'm overstepping into their lane. I am functioning over what is my responsibility. And so I'm taking that away from other people, which is probably causing some resentment and angst in them as well. And it's causing anger and resentment and angst in me because I'm like, "ooh, I'm having to do all the things." And so it just breaks down relationships across the board when we over-function. 

Jane Copier 15:44 

And it's so easy to see how this happens because like you said, there are different levels of care as our kids age. And when they're tiny and their babies, we are 100% responsible for their survival. We have to give them their bottles and change their diapers and take care of their laundry and make sure that they're comfortable and that they're sleeping well, you know, all the things. That's a huge responsibility. But for so many of us, we stay stuck in that level rather than allowing the children to age and take on appropriate responsibilities in their age. And I can see looking back how that was a struggle for me. That was really hard. I really prided myself in being the best mom. I loved that job. I loved having little kids. I mean, I just am so grateful that I had that time in my life. 

Jane Copier 16:36 

But I can see looking back that, that desire to keep that badge of honor, that "best mom" in my brain title, how I did far too much for my kids growing up and not allow them. And I'm not saying that they didn't have chores. They did. And we did do those things, but you, you mentioned Christmas morning. Oh my gosh. I was that mom who was so stressed out. I would make myself physically sick many years. I wouldn't even have a voice on Christmas day cause I was so tired and stressed, but it was so important to me that it just be this magical experience and everything was perfect. And my husband and I came from completely different cultures family-wise when it came to holidays. And I liked the way my family did it and he liked the way his family did it. So he wasn't on board with my crazy plan. And so then I was really resentful and I'm like, "fine, I'll just do it all myself." You know, and gosh, I would have really, really loved to had partnered with him in those years. We partner now so much better because we've worked through this, but yes, he was waiting for an invitation. He was wanting to help. 

Jane Copier 17:50 

But part of the problem with over-functioning is we are continually on the lookout for how someone is going to mess things up. So the moment that they don't hit our expectations and they don't follow our agenda, we're stepping in to fix and correct. And then that really discourages them from ever wanting to step in and offer again. So you're wondering why no one's asking to help. Well, it's pretty clear, right? They can't do it right. They can't ever please you. Why should they try? And then the message is like, "I guess this is just her thing. I'm just going to let her do her thing, stay out of her way." And that's how we create that problem for ourselves. 

Tanya Hale 18:39 

Yeah, it's very dismissive. We've talked about the experience with our kids, you know, we're keeping them from growing up into the people that they need to be when we over-function. But also in our marriages, we do the same thing. And when our spouse is coming from a place like, "listen, I can't ever do anything right, because you take over everything, and you tell me I do it wrong, and you redo it," and all of these things that over functioning does, it's very detrimental to those relationships. And it lets them know that we do not see them, that we do not trust them. 

Jane Copier 19:14 

Yeah. I think another example for me. So in my house, we really loaded the dishwasher in a very specific way, you know, the best way to make those dishes get clean. Like the proper way, right? Like really well before you put them in and then there's this order. And I remember that early on in our marriage, my husband, he just would throw them in willy nilly. And you know, this is a man who'd been on his own for a while. And he was like, he's stayed alive. He's taken very good care of himself. Like, I don't know what it is that we think that they're, you know, just so... don't have the ability, I guess, to take care of things. But I remember telling him, "okay, oh no, please load the dishwasher this way," you know, and then every time he didn't do it, I'd go back and rearrange. 

Jane Copier 20:03 

Well, pretty soon he just stopped trying. He stopped putting dishes in the dishwasher. I'm like, "why isn't anybody putting their dishes away?" He's like, "'cause you're just going to redo it anyway." And he's not wrong. He was not wrong. I was totally guilty of that. So yeah, we have to make it easy. We have to loosen the grip of the control and of the perfection and allow things. Like I thought when I was doing this work, I'm like, "I wonder what would happen if I just don't touch the dishes in the dishwasher, if I just let it run, will they get clean?" I remember just doing this experiment, like just turning it on, not rearranging at all. And sure enough, they came out just sparkling clean. What? Can you imagine that that's even possible? And I'm like, "Oh my gosh, all these years of being angry over the way the dishwasher is loaded for crying out loud." 

Tanya Hale 21:01 

I think that a lot of the over-functioning tendencies we have come from a place of insecurity and needing to have this perfectionist piece to prove that we are of worth. And so what are your thoughts on the correlation between over-functioning and insecurity? 

Jane Copier 21:19 

100%. That perfectionism is all about appearance. We want people to think well of us. We want them to see how on top of things we are, how in control we are, how capable we are. And to not make things turn out well is very, very difficult for someone with that insecurity. Like if you were asked to bring something to a potluck, and you're known for your signature cake. Let's just say, I'm just pulling this out of my head, but let's just say you're known for that signature cake and everybody loves it. That's what you're known for. And you run that day and you're not able to make your cake because life happens and things happen. For someone who has that perfectionist gene, let's say, or that tendency to show up with a store-bought good is excruciating. It's so painful because what will people think? Will they see me differently? And it's just so, it's such a hard way to live. It's exhausting truly. And it doesn't, what you do, the things that you produce have nothing to do with your worth. And that is where people get tripped up. They feel more valuable. They feel more needed, more wanted, more appreciated when they do things perfectly. But the truth is everyone around you, when you behave this way, feels insecure because they're like, "oh, she must be judging my store-bought goods that I just brought." We don't make ourselves approachable, friendly, normal human. When we have to live from this place of fear, like I'm going to be found out if I don't do this well and perfectly, they're going to find out that I'm not as awesome as I pretend to be. 

Tanya Hale 23:15 

Yeah. And then it's just almost like that insecurity multiplies. Because as I show up with my insecurity and start over functioning to compensate for that insecurity, I just breed insecurity in the people around me because then they're like, "well, what, my stuff's not good enough. I don't measure up." It just seems like it kind of multiplies that. 

Jane Copier 23:35 

Yeah, it's isolating. It makes you unapproachable. It just doesn't make you real. And it's painful. It's a painful, lonely place to be. And it's very cost costing to your rest, joy, connection that you want with other people, connection that you want with your spouse or your kids. I'm very efficient in the kitchen. I'm a good cook. I have always, well, my mom taught me, right? Like I've always known how to cook for a crowd. It's kind of part of our culture, as we cook large amounts for a bunch of people and we know how to throw a party. And so I know when I was a young mom, when the kids wanted to help, it was like, "Oh, no, you're going to mess it all up. "You know, it was very hard for me to allow them to come in. But think of all that connection that could have happened if I had just allowed them to come and make it messy and make mistakes and build those memories of doing it together. It's far more important to have that connection than to be perfect. 

Tanya Hale 24:40 

Yeah. I love that. So the opposite side of over-functioning is under-functioning. And I love this space when Brene Brown talked about this as well, like this place of standing down and not engaging, doing less than we could be responsible for or that we're reasonably responsible for. Let's start off with more of a defined definition about under-functioning, and then let's talk about how that shows up in our parenting and in our marriages as well. 

Jane Copier 25:11 

Right. We usually see under functioning in a marriage dynamic where we have a kind of a parent-child relationship. Perhaps your husband, the spouse, you look at him more as a parent, someone to care for you, someone who needs to take care of your needs. And then you show up as the child, you're like, "Oh, I'm a little helpless here. You do this." And I don't think we see this as often as the over-functioning, but it's equally disturbing because anytime there's parent-child dynamic in a marriage, there's nothing sexy about that. We are not attracted to someone that we have to treat as a child. And so it can interfere with intimacy. It can cause resentment the other way when it causes someone have to pick up the burden that doesn't belong to them that they don't want necessarily, unless you're in a real codependent relationship. And then this is the dynamic, right? Like some people really thrive off of this, but it's not healthy. It's not healthy. It's in for reinforcing  behaviors that are not connecting that are not mature. Yeah. 

Tanya Hale 26:25 

So, so the dynamic that I see that often happens is as one spouse over-functions a lot, if the other person does not have healthy boundaries to say, "no, this is mine. I've got this. This is okay." If they don't have those healthy boundaries, it's so, so easy for them to slip into the under-functioning. So like if a woman in the household is like, "listen, the way I do it is always the right way" and they're going back and redoing everything, eventually, the other spouse, if they are prone to slipping into that under-functioning just says, oh, well I become helpless then. Like I don't know how to fold the laundry. Like I don't know how to load the dishwasher. And they move into this super under functioning where they back way off almost to make room for the other person. You know, like one person wants to take up 80% of the space. That person very easily says, "okay, then I'll just take 20% of the space" rather than holding their ground at 50% and saying, "um, no, this is okay. And I'm all right with this." Let's have a chat about what's going on here rather than creating that healthy boundary. They shrink small to take up and they move into that under functioning space. 

Jane Copier 27:34 

Yeah. Well, and the problem is even if they want to engage and they want to function higher in that situation that you just described, the over-functioning person makes it very, very difficult. There will be a price to pay for wanting to step in. You will be ridiculed. You will be told that you've done it wrong. You will be belittled. So there's an emotional cost to standing your ground and keeping that boundary. And so, you know, I love coaching for this very reason because it does pressure you to be a mature adult in your relationship, whether you're over- or under-functioning, and to tolerate that discomfort that's going to come from your spouse when that dynamic isn't healthy. 

Tanya Hale 28:22 

Yeah. And yet it's vital, vital. Like the one thing that I talk about so much here on the podcast is we have to be showing up as equal partners. And until we do, until we get rid of the one-up, the one-down thinking, which is implicit as well in this over functioning and over-functioning. Until we start showing up as equals, we will never create the intimacy that we really want. And intimacy across the board, spiritual, emotional, mental, physical, all of this is dependent upon us really seeing each other and saying "you are my equal" and making space for the other person and cleaning up those over- and under functioning behaviors. 

Jane Copier 29:08 

Yeah. I love that you include all of the different segments because it does show up in different ways for people. It can show up in the household chores. It can show up in your finances. It can show up in the way that you worship, the way that you do holidays, all of that. And so you're right. In every situation, part of the solution is to ask yourself, "what hat am I wearing right now? Am I wearing the hat of a full and equal partner? Or am I playing the child? Am I playing the parent? And how can I check myself? Like, what do I need to correct this imbalance?" Because each one of us needs to take 100% responsibility for the hat that we wear. You cannot be placed in the child position if you're not willing to wear the hat and vice versa. You can't treat your husband like a child without being willing to wear the parent hat. And so asking yourself, "which hat am I wearing and what adjustments do I need to make right now in order to clean this up?" That's where the progress can happen. Yeah. 

Tanya Hale 30:13 

And I think it's fascinating that we create so much of this dysfunction ourselves. Like I walk in, heavy-handed over functioning, treating my spouse like a child, but then I get super angry when he acts like a child in his child role, like this is all you're capable of over here. I have to carry all the things because you're not capable of doing more. And then when he responds the way that we treat him, we get all angry and upset. And this is the stuff that breaks down relationship at the foundational level because it works with the trust. Like do you trust your spouse and can they trust you? 

Jane Copier 30:59 

Yes, and you have to allow for failure if you want to build that trust. You have to allow for imperfection and love through imperfection rather than being critical and judgmental. Because if you can't end the criticism and the judgment, it does just distance your partner. It's very toxic. If that kind of contempt just rots away at a marriage and there's just nothing you can do to fix it until you solve this dynamic. 

Tanya Hale 31:36 

And John Gottman talks about the four horsemen and the last of those is contempt, which is the most destructive. And he  says, once contempt shows up, you're in a serious bit of situation because that contempt, that hatred toward the other person for not being who you think they should be, who you want them to be. And oftentimes though, we create that because we don't allow them to be that person because we criticize them, we put them down, we get angry when they don't show up the way that we think they should. And all those shoulds, right? The shoulds are gonna show up. That's the SH word at our house, right? You can't should on your partner and expect to be creating this equal partner. 

Jane Copier 32:23 

I remember when I read that study and that principle that he teaches about the four horsemen. And I remember having that contempt. And I think this is the message that I want to share mostly with people is that if you're in that place and you feel that contempt, it's not a death nail. Like it's not like the marriage is over, I can't fix this. Because I clearly was in that place where I had a lot of contempt for my husband, but I wasn't aware. I really was not aware of my thoughts. I wasn't aware of what I was creating with him through my behaviors, through my thoughts, through my actions. Once I became aware, I was horrified, honestly horrified. Like I had so much sorrow for the way that I had treated this person that I professed to love. And the way that I had belittled him or made him feel small and not to have the ability, right? Like unappreciated, so unappreciated. 

Jane Copier 33:28 

And so the first step is truly just becoming aware of yourself and really being onto yourself and looking from the outside in at your behavior and asking yourself, "would I want to be married to me? Like, what is it like for my partner to be married to me?" That question just brought so much clarity to me. I'm like, "I don't want to be married to me. Definitely don't want to be married to me. So how do I fix that?" And we have to ask ourselves, "why am I doing this? Why am I making a fuss over this? Why am I over-functioning here? What is it that I'm trying to create?" And if the answer is that I am trying to do it right or perfect or so that I won't be mad that it's imperfect or whatever, the reason is I have to be really honest with myself and pressure myself to be better, pressure myself to be a spouse that I would want to be married to, be more accepting, more loving, more kind. 

Tanya Hale 34:33 

I agree with you. You know, my big ahas didn't come until after I was divorced, but I remember when I first started seeing a lot of this stuff and recognizing it and seeing my own contempt. When that word came into my vocabulary in the marriage context, I was floored and I felt that same thing. I just thought, oh my gosh, I had so much contempt toward my ex-husband that of course there was no space for love and kindness because the contempt was overwhelming. And I was in such a one up place. Like I am just so much better than you. Like "you're ridiculous" kind of kind of attitude. And though I didn't say that out loud, it was the thread running through all of my, all of my actions and interactions with him. And it was this space of, I'm sure, him feeling unseen and unwanted and unaccepted. And that's what that contempt says, is "you are not enough. You are not good enough and you don't measure up." And who is going to thrive being treated like that? Nobody, but that's what this over-functioning creates. 

Jane Copier 35:48 

Yeah. Yeah. It's so, so much self-righteousness. I am good. He is bad. I do things well. He can't do anything right. It's just this mental delusion, really. And you might have evidence that he doesn't do things as well as you do. But if you're honest with yourself, there will be things that he does better than you know, lik it's all relative. And the question is like, even if it's true that I can do something better, do I want to create separation between the two of us and make this an issue? You know, ask myself, "is this mine to carry? Is this mine or is this his?" And if it's his, can I just allow him to have his own consequences and feel those consequences and love him through those consequences, not in a belittling way, not like, "Oh, yep. Told you so. Should've done it my way," but in a way that's like, "Oh, I'm sorry. That didn't work out. How can I help? Is there anything I can do?" You know, just like offering to be a support, not criticizing and being like, "Oh, yep. You screwed it up. Just like I knew you would." 

Tanya Hale 37:02 

Yeah. And do most of these experiences really matter? Like we create so much drama in our brain about thinking that things have to be done a certain way. And it's so important that we start questioning that and start saying, "okay, do they really have to be done that way? Or is it just my preference? Is there a right or a wrong way?" And I think 99.99% of the time we're going to realize there really isn't a right way. There's a preference for me and a preference for them, not really a right or a wrong way to do almost anything. And part of stepping into that relationship circle with our person is creating space for them to be who they are, a safe space for them to be who they are, to show up the person that they are and to work through the stuff that they've got to work through and not receiving criticism or contempt or whatever from us to make it more difficult for them. Our job in that relationship circle is to make it easier for them to walk through life and to figure out life and to look at themselves and make adjustments, not to make it harder. And over-functioning makes all of it harder for the other person in that relationship circle with us if we are not figuring out how to check that. And under-functioning does the same thing, right? It also makes it harder because it forces them to kind of step into taking care of things that an equal partnership is not going to have that balance to it. 

Jane Copier 38:42 

Absolutely. The fruit of either dynamic is resentment. 

Tanya Hale 38:46 

Mm-hmm. 

Jane Copier 38:47 

Of either one. Right? And so allowing your partner to grow is important. If you have to control everything and they're not allowed to make a mistake, there won't be any growth. He'll never get it right. There will never be an opportunity to "get it right," per se. Right? And it's not that it's right or wrong. It's simply that you have a standard that's impossible to meet because he's not in your brain. He doesn't have your lived experience. And you know what? It makes me think of our Heavenly Parents and how they must think of us. And I don't see them reaching down here going, "Oh man, she's screwing it up again. Oh, I'm not going to let her drive to the store anymore because that girl just did not drive." Like they're not interfering. I think they're the perfect example of how to behave in a relationship. They let us have our life experience. They let us choose and they love us through our mistakes. 

Jane Copier 39:43 

And I feel like that's a beautiful model to use in your marriage to allow. And it seems almost condescending to say, allow other people to be themselves. Like who am I to allow anybody? It's like not my job, right? People get to be themselves. That's the way of it. And it's okay. And it's how God intended. And our work is to love people unconditionally as they are, to love them in their messiness and in their mistake-ness, whatever that looks like, but to love them and appreciate their good points for always looking for the flaws and the ways that they're failing and the ways that they're not measuring up. That is what we will find. And it feels pretty awful. 

Tanya Hale 40:25 

Yeah, well, and me always looking for their flaws and trying to let them know how they need to fix, that's again, over functioning, right? It's me taking responsibility for what they are, they need to be responsible for. 100%. Yeah, this over functioning, under-functioning thing is so fascinating and I'm so glad you did that podcast so that it can float back up to the top of my awareness and go, oh yeah, I wanted to talk about this forever and just haven't, so thank you for joining us. Do you have any last bits that you would, you just wanna put in as far as over and under-functioning and... 

Jane Copier 41:03 

Maybe one more thing that I would say is that if you are someone who is an over-functioner, one of the most productive things you can do is rest. And I know that feels so opposite of what you might think in your brain. But rest is productive. It's healthy for your body. It's healthy for your brain, taking time to meditate. You know, Jesus rested, he pulled away when he was depleted. And I would say that this frantic pace that we live in our society where everyone is doing, doing, doing, achieving, productive, I mean, it's just like a rat race. It's not healthy. And so if you can switch the way that you think about rest...and I'm not talking about laziness, there's a difference between rest and laziness. Laziness is "I'm just going to sit on the couch all day and I don't care what happens around me." And maybe there are those days when that feels like restorative and that's exactly what you need. So I'm not bashing that either. There might be reasons for that health or other challenges that people go through. 

Jane Copier 42:11 

But if you can reframe the way that you see rest and realize that it's a necessity and not just laziness and allow yourself, allow yourself to be a human being, allow yourself to recharge to when you're depleted to say, "no, that's not going to work for me." This is something I've really had to learn how to lean into with my own health challenges over the past couple of years. And, you know, I'm totally good now saying, "you know what, I just can't do it today. Sorry." You know, like I still have the same personality. I still have the A type driver personality. I want to do all the things, I want to do it well, but I've been able to let so much go and it's so much better. You'll be so much happier. You'll be so much more pleasant to be around. You're so much more inviting when you're a human and you're not a superhuman that everyone else feels like they have to  measure up to. So allow yourself to rest and to ask for what you need. 

Tanya Hale 43:16 

Yeah, oh, such a great, great bit of information. I think this over-functioning is something that so many of us do without any awareness. We think that we're being helpful. We think that we are making things run more smoothly. And maybe in some ways we are. Like you doing all the packing for everybody for all the years, you know, did it make the trip run more smoothly when everybody had a bathing suit? Yes. But at what cost? At what cost? You know, probably more than a $12 bathing suit at Walmart. 

Jane Copier 43:54 

More cost than you want in your relationship. That is, that's the key. Like it is not worth it. And the payoff of having a connected, loving partnership is so much better than a pat on the back saying, "wow, that was a well-packed suitcase." Keep perspective. 

Tanya Hale 44:20 

Yeah. And these relationships that we are creating as we step into these healthy tools and do this capital W Work, right? The relationships we're creating are so energizing and so life-giving. I just cannot get over the beauty of what we get to experience when we implement these tools into our relationships. 

Jane Copier 44:46 

I know I just, it's this like my heart is always like if people could just know, if they could just experience for themselves, like the difference that it can be, it can be such a beautiful experience. I mean, I have a marriage that I never thought was going to be possible for me. And it's beyond my dreams. I am so in love with my guy and it's a miracle and a blessing, but also a fruit, the fruit of the work. The fruit of the effort of really changing those things about me that were necessary to become a full and equal partner instead of a resentful, bitter, contemptful wife. 

Tanya Hale 45:31 

Truth, girl, speak it! I love all of that. Like, I just can't get over what I get to live. Yeah, implementing these tools and how different this experience is from my previous marriage experience. And I know that my previous experience was not all me, but it was absolutely part me. You know, I added my bits of dysfunction for sure. And I know that my dysfunction helped to spiral the dysfunction as well. 

Jane Copier 46:00 

Well, and I would just share with your listeners because I know you're just so amazing, but I feel like I've had like a front row seat to your transformation. I got to see you shortly after your divorce. I think I met you when you'd been divorced for maybe a year. I don't know how long have you been divorced when we met? 

Tanya Hale 46:20 

Um, probably about four years. 

Jane Copier 46:23 

Okay. Yeah. So something like that. But to see you from that place where you were to where you are today, you're a different person. You are a different person. When Tanya tells you guys that she has made this transformation. I am telling you she is spot on and I see it. She glows. It's a true thing and she has the tools. So well done. So happy for you. 

Tanya Hale 46:48 

Gosh, me too. It's hard to believe sometimes that this is what I get to live. 

Jane Copier 46:55 

Yeah. 

Tanya Hale 46:55 

And it really is these tools, and I know that you have them as well, and I love your podcast, I love your stuff. So let's thank you so much, Jane, for sharing their wisdom with us and bringing this, helping this topic float to the top of what I wanted to talk about for a while. So I would love for you to just tell people a little bit about where they can find you, where they can find your podcast, all the things. 

Jane Copier 47:17 

Absolutely. Thank you. So my podcast is Happy in the Middle and it's on Apple, iTunes, Spotify, wherever you listen, I don't know. I don't know where they all are, but they're wherever you listen. So Happy in the Middle. And then if you ever want to reach out, my website is janecopier.com and I'm on Instagram, YouTube, TikTok, you know, all the normal places, Facebook. So thank you so much for having me. 

Tanya Hale 47:46 

I'll put that information and I will also put this specific podcast that you did on over-functioning in the shout outs as well so that people can find that. And also, I'm just going to put a bunch of other podcasts down there that touch on topics that we talked about if you want to dig a little bit deeper into a lot of these concepts that we talked about today. There will be several other podcasts that you can reference that will that will give you more information and a broader understanding, a deeper understanding as well. 

Jane Copier 48:14 

Great. You're awesome. Thank you so much. Tanya, thanks for all you do. I just am cheering you on. You're doing great work. 

Tanya Hale 48:19 

Oh, same. I love the work you are doing. So thank you. 

Jane Copier 48:22 

Thank you. 

Tanya Hale 48:24 

Thank you so much for joining me today. If you would love to receive some weekend motivation, be sure to sign up for my free "weekend win" Friday email: a short and quick message to help you have a better weekend and position yourself for a more productive week. Go to tanyahale.com to sign up and learn more about life coaching and how it can help you get to your best self ever. See ya.